| 03/97
 "Listen to your own voice!"
An Interview with Native American Independent Filmmaker, Sandra Osawa
by Victor Payan
Victor Payan: How did you get interested in documentary filmmaking?
Sandra Osawa: It was an evolving process. I've always been interested
in communication aspects. I wrote poetry at a young age, continued in college
and realized, "This could be taken seriously." I asked somebody,
"How do you actually make a poem a poem?" Dealing with form,
structure and how to break lines was a whole new process. It's interesting
but once you learn that form, a lot of mystery is taken out. It evolved
from that point to thinking, "If you want to communicate through film
or video, how is that done ?"
I worked for my own tribe as Community Action Director of the poverty
program. There was never anything to do on the reservation. I tried to
have a movie night, but it was difficult with no films about us and particularly
nothing about Northwest tribes. That always stuck in my mind.
Then in Los Angeles I heard UCLA was looking for minority people to
go into film school. It was the early '70s during the push for more diversity,
and there was money to do something about it. I jumped at the chance and
dropped whatever it was I was doing, and headed for that program. I thought,"This
is exactly what I want to do and find out about." A process began
but I hate to say, I only stayed half a year and became a drop out. I tried
getting more access to equipment thinking, "I have enough information
now, and with equipment I can do this on my own."
Victor Payan: So you didn't necessarily drop out, you kind of
jumped ahead!
Sandra Osawa: (Laughs) That's a good way to put it. It
was jumping ahead, because times were such that you became very impatient
having to wait. The opportunity was there and you could see the potential
of what could be done. I mean I know society really demands that credential.
It would have been nice to have the degree, but I was impatient at the
process of sitting there talking about theory. I wanted to jump in and
do something!
Victor Payan: Right. One reason I think people go to film school
is to access equipment. But you didn't get access to the equipment.
Sandra Osawa: It was such a disappointment, and we all felt disgruntlement
and discouragement. We tried putting pressure on to release equipment,
but it wasn't possible for any of us. What was great about the program,
however, was seeing its potential. We all completed our first projects
and it was uplifting to see student films from diverse communities- from
people of color! That kept us motivated and propelled many of us out into
different directions. Moctezuma Esparza is one of the success stories of
the program.
Victor Payan: What was your first film?
Sandra Osawa: It was a one minute project called, "Curios".
I decided to try the most difficult thing, a short piece, and was really
elated with it. We shot inside a museum at people coming through looking
at Native American curios. Mummies were still being displayed. We shot
that and edited the whole thing together. It showed how white people really
see us, in terms of looking at us behind glass cases. It was transferred
to video and shown recently at a film festival of retrospective works.
It was fun to see again.
Victor Payan: Yes, with it documented, it's amazing to see how
this becomes a record of the time or way of seeing something.
Sandra Osawa: Yes it really does. It would be great to see the
other student projects, because it was a first expression and statement
showing positive things institutions can do when their heart and attitude
are in the right place. Unfortunately during the 80s, much of that heart
and soul have been gutted.
Victor Payan: Is it harder for people starting out now then it
was in the early '70s?
Sandra Osawa: I think it's probably equally as hard, because
we did some steps backward through the '80s. It's about as hard today as
it was when I first started. That's not a very positive statement, but
it shows the struggle isn't necessarily a linear one, about climbing the
ladder and the higher you go, the easier it gets. It's more a cycle kind
of thing. There's always been difficulties for people of color being in
the media, and I think the obstacles are very real. After that first thrust
of affirmative action, doors opened a little easier, but now I don't feel
that same political climate or energy. We have a little track record now,
but basically we're starting over trying to prove our credibility .
Victor Payan: Perhaps there's not as many "ins" for
students today as in the early '70s, but do you feel access to equipment
is easier now?
Sandra Osawa: That's a really encouraging thing. Equipment is
coming down in price and going up in quality. Film cameras used to be so
expensive and everything was so removed, that financially, if you didn't
have access in schools, it was almost impossible. Editing equipment is
coming down in price also. So it's possible for individuals to do a long-range
plan, get their camera and editing equipment and go forward with their
project.
Victor Payan: As your career developed, what were some obstacles
you faced as a Native American filmmaker doing Native American work ?
Sandra Osawa: In the mid-'70s we had to (and this sounds laughable
now), but we had to bolster ourselves using cover letters from Native American
men. There were only two Native American women doing the initial push toward
NBC for the Native American series, and credibility was such that doors
would open if a letter came from a Native American man. Even though we
wrote the letter, we had it signed by a man in the community. We'd receive
comments of how persuasive the letter was. . .and the Native American man
took full credit saying,"Thank you". So we did a lot of game
playing in terms of the sexism that existed, but we wanted so much to get
a program launched. We were willing to do these things, and put our work
out under somebody else's name! For initial contacts we made sure some
Native American men were present to do the official talking.
Victor Payan: Have things really changed since then?
Sandra Osawa: Well, that's a good question. I know it's still
there because if you look at the funding opportunities from my own community,
male producers receive the larger share of funding. Those things weren't
necessarily unique to the '70s, but we tried to figure out how to get around
the obstacles and gain opportunities to write, produce and have a series.
NBC had done public information series on Blacks, Asians, Chicanos, and
their last was to be about Native Americans. It was low budget but it was
an opportunity to be on the air.
That series in '75 became the first to be produced, acted, written and
researched by Native Americans in the country. It went to all O & O
stations-"owned and operated." It was a major historical piece,
and set a precedent that Native Americans could really produce.
Victor Payan: Has that been done since? Was last year's big series
originated by Native Americans.
Sandra Osawa: You mean the Turner series. No, I don't think it's
been done since, and that's another disturbing thing. You'd think since
the mid-'70s we could build from there, but again, the ladder concept doesn't
hold for us. Each decade you have to prove yourself again and again. I
mean, how many ladders do you have to build? I think those major series
by Turner and Costner, didn't have Native American involvement at the highest
levels, especially the writing levels. They weren't very compelling, passionate
or involving programs, and you sensed the absence of Native Americans.
Now with "Eyes on the Prize", you definitely had a black producer
paired with a white producer. Having a black producer at top levels made
a difference in the passion they were able to deliver.
Victor Payan: Right! One issue which seems very important to
many Native American writers is the idea of how the story is told. Storytelling
qualities are very particular within a particular tradition.
Sandra Osawa: Yes, it's really about voice and expression, and
making room for all voices. Especially in this country which is supposed
to be devoted to diversity, hopefully we can listen to everyone. Besides,
stories are more interesting when told by many voices, as opposed to being
channeled through one culture or one point of view. I think that's the
goal we have to set for ourselves. For example, in talking about the series'
concept, the art director for NBC wanted the Native American host to appear
in a breechcloth and feathers! Had a Native American producer not been
there, the conclusion might have been, "Sure, fine! Let's do it!"
The tendancy would be to go along with someone at a higher level, which
he was.
Victor Payan: So it's at a pretty basic level.
Sandra Osawa: Yes, really basic and from there you get into deeper
levels of the script process, production ideas, stills and visuals. It's
a tremendous night and day difference having somebody from inside the culture
making important decisions. It contributes to whether you tell a story
with heart and soul, or whether you're just in it for the job!
Victor Payan: What reactions did you receive about the series
from mainstream media and the Native American community?
Sandra Osawa: What amazed me most was the avalanche pouring in
from across the country's non-Indian community. I knew the native community
would be happy with it, and they were. But the non-Indian community, teachers
from all over the country said they woke up at 6 am. to see the series.
They wrote and asked, "Why can't we have something of this quality
at prime time?" Although it aired at an early time we still reached
millions of people.
I realized at that point, "It's not what they've been feeding us",
the fact that there's no interest in Native American issues. Letters came
pouring in, and it was an amazing experience to realize the power of the
media to reach out and communicate solid ideas to the rest of America.
Victor Payan: Was it discouraging at times to feel you were the
only one out there?
Sandra Osawa: Discouragement comes with the territory, whether
it's the '70s or late '90s. When I began I didn't know any Native American
women producing, and had nobody to identify with or look up to. I think
we all make a contribution being just where we are. There are ripple effects
with people saying,"Oh, yea! I can do that too!" But it's tough
for minorities! You face continual rejection no matter how many projects
you've done and how good your ideas are. It's relatively new territory
for us. We haven't been in the field that many decades, so facing and overcoming
obstacles makes the way smoother for others.
Victor Payan: In starting your career who or what influenced
you, filmmakers, films or things you read? What helped develop your style?
Sandra Osawa: I was influenced by the poetry of writers with
spare and clear imagery. I wanted to find images that were somewhat, I
want to say simple, but simple could be misunderstood. In terms of being
like poetry, the more you refine it, the less words you have to use. I'm
driven by poetry with strong, specific imagery. That really reaches people.
It's a discipline that guides me to reduce and clear out the clutter. It's
hard in documentaries because they are driven by words. So we try finding
ways to make words come out as strong as they possibly can.
Victor Payan: I think you are very conscious of the imagery used
to tell the story on screen.
Sandra Osawa: Right, it's fun because you don't just have to
use words. You can find a different way to say things with images. The
real challenge is experimenting to see if things can be said more clearly.
Victor Payan: Now tell me about the Jim Pepper piece. I saw it
and really liked it. How did you get interested in that story?
Sandra Osawa: Since the early eighties I'd wanted to do something
with Native American music. I came across Jim Pepper, a Mescalero,Apache
who mixed Apache words with playing guitar in a blues format. I thought
about doing a project with him, and did initial shooting when he appeared
at the National Congress of American Indians Convention in 1984. I was
taken aback by what he did with the music, because I'd never heard a Native
American jazz musician. We had done our share of listening to jazz, and
I thought," Wow, how come I didn't know Jim Pepper existed? And if
I didn't know he existed, not many people must know about him." We
did an interview in 1984, and tried unsuccessfully to get funding. Then
around 1989 I decided to start up without funding. We got Jim's transportation
paid to Tuba City with an Arizona Arts Commission grant which also paid
a musical fee because he was to teach a class at the high school. When
Jim visited his parents in Portland, we shot an interview with him and
laid that down. The shooting in '89 became the bulk of our work, because
we ran out of time. Jim died in '92. After he died I became very angry
and frustrated thinking, "This is a prime example that we can't get
our stories funded because nobody knows, first of all, the people who are
important to our communities." So when they(the funders) sit on panels
asking, "Who's Jim Pepper? I don't know! So let's not fund them!"
It becomes a Catch 22. How do you get a project funded that's important
to one community, but other people have no knowledge of it? Without a clearly
written proposal about the importance of this project, his story like millions
of others, would never be told. After that second proposal attempt, we
finally received an ITVS Grant. It was a relief getting one important story
out, because it deserves telling. In the story, we didn't want to use a
narrator and rely on a distant voice coming from outside. That made the
piece much more intimate.
Victor Payan: Yes, you really connect with him, through his words
and those of his friends. After you got the film made, the next step was
to get it seen.
Sandra Osawa:Right! We have it before POV. They probably have
500 submissions and can only choose 10! So it's ultra competitive. There
just aren't many slots open for independent producers. Also we'll try PBS.
If it becomes a "soft seed", it's at the discretion of local
stations to pick up a program or not. There are many conservative PBS stations
across the country, and in terms of politics, they aren't always atuned
to diversity programs with minority producers. That's a big obstacle we
face today.
Victor Payan: What other avenues are open for Native American
filmmakers?
Sandra Osawa: Cable is a place to go knock on the door, and the
educational market is also receptive to good materials for libraries and
colleges. It takes money for marketing outreach, but our limited marketing
attempts have been well received. By accessing addresses and telephone
numbers, we've found many Indian related schools and colleges teaching
Native American subjects who are looking for good materials. The MacArthur
Foundation also did a special mailing of Native American programs sending
it free to all libraries. That made significant in-roads, and these kinds
of attempts are great for independent producers.
Victor Payan: In putting together a documentary, is it difficult
to access historical materials? Is it different looking through the National
Archives, Library of Congress or tribal archives?
Sandra Osawa: The whole archival question is difficult because
we've found most museums are not properly labelled. Even in national or
state museums, you'll see something like, "Indian by canoe".
This is of no use if you're looking for a Yakima person named Jack Jones.
The whole labelling and identification process tends to be very impersonal.
Many times we don't have names or dates attached to photographs. We've
found the best source is living people who help us find a particular photograph.
It takes longer that way, but it's given us many rich pictures.
In the piece we're working on now called, "Usual and Accustomed
Places", we're looking back 150 years through the eyes of individual
Indian people who fought for treaty rights to fish. It demands heavy use
of archival photographs and is a painstaking process, but it will be interesting
once we're done. There were six sites in Washington state where we signed
major treaties. We thought the locations would be marked and identified,
but most were not. More importantly, we thought there'd be portraits of
the Indian people who signed treaties, especially in tribal museums. We've
found an enormous lack of personal identification about our history. It's
an example that our history has not been documented. We always knew it
hadn't, but we didn't realize the gap was so huge.
Victor Payan: Unless somebody with the knowledge is there to
see what's missing, nobody will catch it! The recent documentary series
about the West talked about Native Americans through generic photographs.
Sandra Osawa: It was frustrating for me to look at because the
series actually used wrong photographs, even different tribes. I thought,
"Wow! They had money for accurate research." One of the wrongs
done in history is we've become so abstract. We have not been personalized.
It's difficult for anyone to get a handle on who we are as a people. Series
like "The West" perpetuate us in the abstract and that's very
damaging. It's also frustrating for many independent Native American directors
and producers to view, because we're doing primary research without the
funding. It's appalling to see heavily funded series which lack the research.
How can this crime go on?
Victor Payan: Right, and the "The West" was considered
more sympathetic than others out there.
Sandra Osawa: It might be considered sympathetic except for the
fact that it simply rehashes stories like Chief Joseph and others whom
we've already heard about. It keeps instilling in the minds of America,
"We are the losers, and we are abstract people, rather than particular
people with particular lives!"
Victor Payan: So that further emphasizes the importance of having
an authentic voice telling the story.
Sandra Osawa: Yes, but authentic voices need funding. It's expensive
to compete in the world with inadequate funding. Look who gets funded to
tell an Indian story. Is it the Indian? No,it's not! It's the non-Indian.
That inequity continues to exist, and we have to ask ourselves, "Why?
What is everyone so afraid of? Why can't Native Americans be afforded the
same opportunities to tell our stories? Why does it have to be told through
a non-Indian voice?"
Victor Payan: Doing the math from your series in '75 to 20 years
later now, there hasn't been one with authentic Native American voices.
Sandra Osawa: Yea, it's amazing! Totally amazing!
Victor Payan: Knowing these obstacles, what advice do you give
students interested to get into the field?
Sandra Osawa: Do the work! That's the best thing. Have a five
or ten minute sample showing what you can do. I'd be impressed if someone
came to me with a good ten minute sample. Whatever skill you bring in,
whether it's your camera work, sound, or writing. It comes across in five
or ten minutes. It's a good idea to invest in a good sample. There are
also people who can write good funding proposals. That's really an art
and one of the most important things. People not interested in technical
aspects can also be involved, and students can find independent producers
who always need help. Volunteering on someone's project gives you invaluable
experience. If you're relegated to logging tapes, which might seem tedious
and menial, you're closest to the material and if you can talk about it
intelligently, that's invaluable. You can prove yourself in almost any
capacity.
Victor Payan: What has been the most rewarding moment in your
career?
Sandra Osawa: There have been a couple rewarding moments, and
both had to do with actual air time. One was receiving the award from NBC
for the Native American series. That was important because it was such
a first. It represented hope and the feeling, "We did it!" There
were skillful Native Americans at all production levels. We produced a
program every two weeks, and someone later said, "Oh that was a suicide
mission! You were supposed to fail!" I know we were supposed to fail,
but I stayed up around the clock, many many days. We shot our own film,
brought in our own stills and also the music. The program was supposed
to be like a talk show, but we made it a real series with production value.
The reaction from inside NBC was shock. They had no experience working
alongside Native American people, and they didn't know Indians could act,
produce or do anything. "Wow! They're doing this!" People were
very impressed with the whole series, and although it was our first project,
it confirmed the idea that we can do it if we're given an opportunity.
The second rewarding moment was the recent airing of "Lighting
the Seventh Fire." Once again, it was the first Native American program
shown on POV. We had a good feeling that another goal had been accomplished.
You hope that more doors will open, but you can't think about that when
you're concentrating on the work. Doing the work and having it seen is
the goal.
Victor Payan: What guidelines do you follow in telling a story?
Is it instinct, or is it a conscious effort to tell the story in a certain
way?
Sandra Osawa: Many of the stories have a cyclical feeling to
them. That's both conscious and unconscious. The program is a reflection
of my attitude, values and way of looking at things in terms of a circle.
"Big Mountain", for example, begins with rock art and ends with
rock art. There's a front and back cover. "Lighting the Seventh Fire"
begins with Eugene Begay, a spiritual man, and it also ends with him. There's
also a strong element of spirituality in all projects I do. Someone once
said about Jim Pepper, "He was a very spiritual person, but he never
talked about it." That's how we approach our videos. They are very
spiritual in their basic construction and in their basic message. I don't
talk about it often, even in the video itself. Whether the program is political,
which many are, it's still rooted in a strong spiritual feeling. That's
probably a departure from how a non-native would produce the same subject
area. I doubt it would have that element of spirituality. That's what sets
my work apart, and hopefully makes it stronger.
Victor Payan: Do you have some final advice for students interested
in pursuing this career and telling their stories?
Sandra Osawa: You have to be tough, persistent and willing to
listen to your own voice, even if everyone around you gives you rejection.
Keep focused on your own vision, no matter what, and I think you'll be
successful. That may sound optimistic, but you can't be too influenced
by either praise or negative aspects.
Victor Payan: Finally, what's kept you going when you've faced
discouragement?
Sandra Osawa: Well, I think what keeps us going, is we MUST keep
going! There's a feeling that we must survive!
This interview was originally published in the 1997 festival
program of Cine Estudiantil: Chicano/Latino & Native American Student
Film & Video Festival.
Many thanks to thank Grace van Thillo for transcribing and editing this
interview down from a two hour conversation.
© 1997 Victor Payan
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